Comments on: One Thing: The Gospel Must Be Central http://claytonking.com/one-thing-the-gospel-must-be-central/ The online connection to Clayton King Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:25:53 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: admin http://claytonking.com/one-thing-the-gospel-must-be-central/#comment-456 admin Mon, 14 Jan 2008 01:35:25 +0000 http://claytonking.com/one-thing-the-gospel-must-be-central/#comment-456 Sam, thanks for your comments. Your perspective is common amongst neo-liberal Christian thinkers, but is not new. I take issue with your characterization of the idea of a substitutionary atonement as unnecessary and with your incorrect statement that the idea of the need for the death of Christ as a silly, American, Western Christian teaching. Five minutes studying church history will prove that way before the West (Europe and America) were evangelized that the early church taught that the shed blood of Christ was a necessity, that God's love was never more evident than in the sacrifice of His own son, and that to fulfill the requirements of the law of the Old Testament, a perfect Lamb must die. You stand, with others, in direct opposition to 2,000 years of Christian orthodoxy. You also assume a position of theological superiority over and against Augustine, Origen, Thomas Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Karl Barth, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, D.A. Carson, Billy Graham, John R.W. Stott, N.T. Wright, D. Martin Lloyd Jones, Eugene Peterson, and every other revered and respected Christian scholar who has taken issues of theology seriously. So while I applaud your effforts to make much of God's love and grace, I also caution you to cease attempting to dismantle scripture and church history to suit your own culturally conditioned sensitivities. It is likely that our politically correct and easily offended Western culture has made the idea of a bloody cross being the ultimate proof of God's love hard to stomach for you. So is it the Western church who has incorrectly taught the truth of the gospel, or is it your perspective that has been shaped by a Western culture that cannot stand to be offfended by any idea of truth, accountability, or a God who takes humanity's sin so seriously that He would take drastic measures to redeem humanity from that sin by sacrificing His own son? Sam, thanks for your comments. Your perspective is common amongst neo-liberal Christian thinkers, but is not new. I take issue with your characterization of the idea of a substitutionary atonement as unnecessary and with your incorrect statement that the idea of the need for the death of Christ as a silly, American, Western Christian teaching. Five minutes studying church history will prove that way before the West (Europe and America) were evangelized that the early church taught that the shed blood of Christ was a necessity, that God’s love was never more evident than in the sacrifice of His own son, and that to fulfill the requirements of the law of the Old Testament, a perfect Lamb must die. You stand, with others, in direct opposition to 2,000 years of Christian orthodoxy. You also assume a position of theological superiority over and against Augustine, Origen, Thomas Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Karl Barth, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, D.A. Carson, Billy Graham, John R.W. Stott, N.T. Wright, D. Martin Lloyd Jones, Eugene Peterson, and every other revered and respected Christian scholar who has taken issues of theology seriously. So while I applaud your effforts to make much of God’s love and grace, I also caution you to cease attempting to dismantle scripture and church history to suit your own culturally conditioned sensitivities. It is likely that our politically correct and easily offended Western culture has made the idea of a bloody cross being the ultimate proof of God’s love hard to stomach for you. So is it the Western church who has incorrectly taught the truth of the gospel, or is it your perspective that has been shaped by a Western culture that cannot stand to be offfended by any idea of truth, accountability, or a God who takes humanity’s sin so seriously that He would take drastic measures to redeem humanity from that sin by sacrificing His own son?

]]> By: Sam http://claytonking.com/one-thing-the-gospel-must-be-central/#comment-452 Sam Sun, 13 Jan 2008 18:20:15 +0000 http://claytonking.com/one-thing-the-gospel-must-be-central/#comment-452 Jesus did not come to die, but so that we might have abundant life!!! His death upon the Cross was essential to opening the doorway to that abundance...because it perfects Jesus (read Hebrews), however. The image of the dark evil God who commits divine child abuse to satisfy a sick desire for blood crept into the visible Christian institutions long ago, it has not conquered the true message of Jesus - which is make disciples of all nations. God is love. This is not compatible with a God who's wrath is satisfied by killing something. A deep study of the Old Testament will show that God never asked for sacrifice....except for ONE time if I remember correctly. Study it! A voluntary (Jesus wanted the Cross so all men could be drawn to Him) substitutionary atonement is fine, but I still think we (professing Christians) have missed what is really important. We are teaching men's ideas about God as core beliefs and leaving God's teaching about love and spiritual disciplines by the way side. The ransom is not paid to the Father, but to the Evil one who worked inside men to kill Jesus. God is One and not guilty of murder. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit exist in a sweet loving family of eternal friendship and mutual care. The Cross symbolizes and shouts "I love you!!!" to the whole world!!! It is the demonstration of God's love and forgiveness that has always been there! No more need to build temples and kill animals....see?? The Cross means more than this too....it also symbolizes the possible death to self we can have in this life. We are to join Jesus on the Cross by dying to ourselves....our selfish wills. May the God of all peace bring us slowly away from American and Western Christian mistaken teaching and the silly ideas of men to the true Way of Jesus. Did you know that many professing Christians actually believe cheating on your spouse is OK? Or they think God will "just forgive them" if they ask later after they cheat? God will forgive anyone who sincerely repents, but someone is kidding themselves if they think their "belief in the atonement" protects a seat in heaven. Jesus did not come to die, but so that we might have abundant life!!! His death upon the Cross was essential to opening the doorway to that abundance…because it perfects Jesus (read Hebrews), however. The image of the dark evil God who commits divine child abuse to satisfy a sick desire for blood crept into the visible Christian institutions long ago, it has not conquered the true message of Jesus - which is make disciples of all nations. God is love. This is not compatible with a God who’s wrath is satisfied by killing something. A deep study of the Old Testament will show that God never asked for sacrifice….except for ONE time if I remember correctly. Study it!

A voluntary (Jesus wanted the Cross so all men could be drawn to Him) substitutionary atonement is fine, but I still think we (professing Christians) have missed what is really important. We are teaching men’s ideas about God as core beliefs and leaving God’s teaching about love and spiritual disciplines by the way side. The ransom is not paid to the Father, but to the Evil one who worked inside men to kill Jesus. God is One and not guilty of murder. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit exist in a sweet loving family of eternal friendship and mutual care. The Cross symbolizes and shouts “I love you!!!” to the whole world!!! It is the demonstration of God’s love and forgiveness that has always been there! No more need to build temples and kill animals….see?? The Cross means more than this too….it also symbolizes the possible death to self we can have in this life. We are to join Jesus on the Cross by dying to ourselves….our selfish wills.

May the God of all peace bring us slowly away from American and Western Christian mistaken teaching and the silly ideas of men to the true Way of Jesus. Did you know that many professing Christians actually believe cheating on your spouse is OK? Or they think God will “just forgive them” if they ask later after they cheat? God will forgive anyone who sincerely repents, but someone is kidding themselves if they think their “belief in the atonement” protects a seat in heaven.

]]> By: admin http://claytonking.com/one-thing-the-gospel-must-be-central/#comment-228 admin Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:46:22 +0000 http://claytonking.com/one-thing-the-gospel-must-be-central/#comment-228 In my opinion, the gospel, when central to who we are first and what we do second, comes out of every pore or our lives; our conversations, our sermons, our relationships, how we react to inconvenience, etc. That is why we mustn't separate the gospel from any aspect of our lves or the church In my opinion, the gospel, when central to who we are first and what we do second, comes out of every pore or our lives; our conversations, our sermons, our relationships, how we react to inconvenience, etc. That is why we mustn’t separate the gospel from any aspect of our lves or the church

]]> By: Joe Louthan http://claytonking.com/one-thing-the-gospel-must-be-central/#comment-227 Joe Louthan Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:41:48 +0000 http://claytonking.com/one-thing-the-gospel-must-be-central/#comment-227 It blows my mind to see how you can separate the Gospel and preaching. To me, it is more hard work removing the Gospel then to include it in your testimony, your preaching or just in the way you live. Am I wrong? It blows my mind to see how you can separate the Gospel and preaching. To me, it is more hard work removing the Gospel then to include it in your testimony, your preaching or just in the way you live.

Am I wrong?

]]> By: Jason http://claytonking.com/one-thing-the-gospel-must-be-central/#comment-226 Jason Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:24:58 +0000 http://claytonking.com/one-thing-the-gospel-must-be-central/#comment-226 YES! In an age where many Christian leaders and pastors are putting a question mark behind the gospel, I'm pumped to see others, especially of my generation, keep the periods and exclamation points behind it. Truth prevails. YES!

In an age where many Christian leaders and pastors are putting a question mark behind the gospel, I’m pumped to see others, especially of my generation, keep the periods and exclamation points behind it.

Truth prevails.

]]> By: Joe Louthan http://claytonking.com/one-thing-the-gospel-must-be-central/#comment-225 Joe Louthan Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:20:43 +0000 http://claytonking.com/one-thing-the-gospel-must-be-central/#comment-225 Lance, The preaching of prosperity has done quite a number on the churchgoers. During the late 90s which I like to call "the peak of prosperity preaching" is where the preacher could take any sermon and somehow shoehorn in an out-of-context Dummies version of 2 Cor 8 & 9. It was a sight to behold. I am not saying every single pastor did it but enough of them did it to either really offend churchgoers or misled churchgoers to thinking that they had to give in order to receive. Hindsight is always 20/20 as we look back at the mistakes we did on either side of this issue. While I will not try to interpret the Will of God, my God-given wisdom tells me that form of prosperity was never to be taught in the church. The aftermath is all around. I get this feeling (I could be wrong) that most churches realized it was a mistake and just try to move forward and not acknowledging what had happened. Those preachers of seeker churches are now being triple-responsible with the words that come of their mouth. Even to the extent that they have to over-explain every time they mention any words that has something to do with money. I used to be like that couple. The holier-than-thou believer who will not have any part of any church that DARED ask for money. However, something happened to me where God is the Lord of all of my life and I listen to His voice. Guess where I serve? A megachurch. Wanna guess if I have been blessed in abundance? Because I listened to the voice of God, then you already know that answer. Whatever Satan can do to divide believers, he will certainly do. But so long as we all focus on the righteousness of God, then we always stand united. Lance,

The preaching of prosperity has done quite a number on the churchgoers. During the late 90s which I like to call “the peak of prosperity preaching” is where the preacher could take any sermon and somehow shoehorn in an out-of-context Dummies version of 2 Cor 8 & 9. It was a sight to behold.

I am not saying every single pastor did it but enough of them did it to either really offend churchgoers or misled churchgoers to thinking that they had to give in order to receive.

Hindsight is always 20/20 as we look back at the mistakes we did on either side of this issue. While I will not try to interpret the Will of God, my God-given wisdom tells me that form of prosperity was never to be taught in the church.

The aftermath is all around. I get this feeling (I could be wrong) that most churches realized it was a mistake and just try to move forward and not acknowledging what had happened. Those preachers of seeker churches are now being triple-responsible with the words that come of their mouth. Even to the extent that they have to over-explain every time they mention any words that has something to do with money.

I used to be like that couple. The holier-than-thou believer who will not have any part of any church that DARED ask for money. However, something happened to me where God is the Lord of all of my life and I listen to His voice.

Guess where I serve? A megachurch.

Wanna guess if I have been blessed in abundance? Because I listened to the voice of God, then you already know that answer.

Whatever Satan can do to divide believers, he will certainly do. But so long as we all focus on the righteousness of God, then we always stand united.

]]> By: David Richardson http://claytonking.com/one-thing-the-gospel-must-be-central/#comment-223 David Richardson Wed, 12 Dec 2007 13:58:05 +0000 http://claytonking.com/one-thing-the-gospel-must-be-central/#comment-223 Yep, Clayton, you're so right. The Gospel must be the center-piece of our lives and ministries. Great reminder, bro! Yep, Clayton, you’re so right. The Gospel must be the center-piece of our lives and ministries. Great reminder, bro!

]]> By: Lance Ratliff http://claytonking.com/one-thing-the-gospel-must-be-central/#comment-222 Lance Ratliff Wed, 12 Dec 2007 13:21:22 +0000 http://claytonking.com/one-thing-the-gospel-must-be-central/#comment-222 Clayton, I know this is a little of subject but this question has been weighing heavily on my heart. I was at a Christian dinner concert this past weekend and certain comments were made at the table that disturbed me. We were discussing the churches we attended and why we had chosen that church. One couple made the comment that they had attended my church but would never go back because the service was about giving back or in other words money. They liked thier church because the preacher never asked for money or talked about money. They said as long a solid message is given then people will be moved to give. I stated we had only had two or three services in the last year andhalf about money, thye felt this was way to high and detrimental to the church growth. What is acceptable ? I believe people should be preached the gospel. The bible has thousands of versus about money or that directly relate to our stuff. I came away feeling that these Christians felt thier money or atleast talking about thier money should not be discussed in church. Thanks for your thoughts in advance. I know you are a busy guy so whenever you have a chance, Thanks Clayton,

I know this is a little of subject but this question has been weighing heavily on my heart. I was at a Christian dinner concert this past weekend and certain comments were made at the table that disturbed me. We were discussing the churches we attended and why we had chosen that church. One couple made the comment that they had attended my church but would never go back because the service was about giving back or in other words money. They liked thier church because the preacher never asked for money or talked about money. They said as long a solid message is given then people will be moved to give. I stated we had only had two or three services in the last year andhalf about money, thye felt this was way to high and detrimental to the church growth.

What is acceptable ? I believe people should be preached the gospel. The bible has thousands of versus about money or that directly relate to our stuff. I came away feeling that these Christians felt thier money or atleast talking about thier money should not be discussed in church. Thanks for your thoughts in advance. I know you are a busy guy so whenever you have a chance, Thanks

]]>